Apocalyptic Architecture

The view from the window of my office on the 46th floor of the 43rd St Park Avenue building I used to work in.
February 9, 2008

Elaine Meinel Supkis

I used to work in a skyscraper in Manhattan on Park Ave and 43rd St. My husband and several of our friends used to work in both WTC towers. Back in the 1970's, when the towers were new, we discussed the security and strength of the new WTC and found it seriously wanting. Over the years, we all lived through various scares involving planes and helicopters due to the fact that above all other cities, NYC has one of the biggest concentration of the world's biggest buildings, all on one very narrow island surrounded by several major airports. We all had narrow escapes from accidents falling from the skies. This also includes a military jet slamming into what used to be my home in Tucson, Arizona, during the 1970's. There is now a huge number of people who think they know how buildings work and they are now convinced the failure of the modern structures on 9/11 wasn't due to bad architectural choices. So time to address this issue, I say.

First, Ron Paul gave up his run due to a loss of support of the 9/11 fanatics:

The real issue now is that Ron Paul is effectively out of the race ....whether he directly came out and said it or not. In his statement of thanks to his supporters (see below), he also announced he's cutting his staff way back. The message is clear.

The last Ron Paul 'money bomb' showed a substantial loss of support momentum...which was/is largely the result of his complete public disassociation and denouncement of the entire 911 Truth Movement during that national 'debate' several weeks ago.

That was either a bald-faced, enormous, lie to try to keep himself politically 'alive' ... OR that is HIS truth.

Either way, it cost him a lot of support.

Like myself, Ron Paul struggles to be rational or sane even if he has his own pet beliefs. We all have our own pet beliefs. But some become group manias. I remember in NYC, when Elvis died due to overdose of drugs. Almost immediately, the fabulous story popped up that he wasn't dead, he was hiding. I would even joke, 'Yeah, he has to hide from his own fans because they are insane.' Of course, none of these believers could explain why he had to hide. They just wanted to believe he was hiding. It was nearly impossible to get them to articulate the rational reasons for him faking his own death. The need for wishful thinking was very strong. The 'wish' element in the human mind is like a powerful drug. It triggers chemical changes which protects us from fears of our own mortality. It also triggers part of the 'fight or flight' parts of the brain. If we are in emotional pain, this dulls the pain. Indeed, it is very connected to the part of the human brain where religious impulses probably reside. Humans created religion during the Ice Ages. That time of terrible death and suffering as humans struggled to figure out how to hunt, how to use animal furs to cover our nakedness, how to create, care for and use fire. Indeed, most religions revolve around Ice Age problems. The devotion of the hearth and the calling of game being two very powerful and universal concerns. There are no humans on earth who don't have fire god stories. Just as there are no humans who don't have 'flood' stories which probably came from the era when the sudden melt caused world oceans to rise by 20 feet or more, very quickly.

Because we all have this part of our brains, we are also very vulnerable to dreams leaking into our waking world. Most people are blissfully unaware of their dreams but we all dream and the thoughts and desires awoken in these nocturnal lives can trip us up in the waking world. This cross-over effect always is part of our perceptions of what we like to call 'reality'.

When I began this news service, I decided to talk about things that interest me. And what has always interested me has been WWIII. My very first foray on the New York Times forums many years ago was, 'Can We Avoid WWIII?' thread I started there. All my life, avoiding this war has been my mission and my hope. If I want to stop this event, I have to talk about the Apocalypse. This religious horror is like a Grim Reaper who sits at the table, silent. Except when it stirs. We can hear it moving when we see the news, if we look carefully. Several times, the Reaper nearly swept us all aside. This began right after my 12th birthday. I was in Junior High at the time. On my birthday, I climbed into the foothills of the mountains where I could see all of Tucson. Standing under a saguaro I called, 'Saguaro Woman', I looked into the setting sun which was falling to the West right where Bavaquivari raises its warning finger to the sky. That mountain is also the Mountain of the Dead. As if in a dream, I could see the Vulturine figure of Death rising and I shuddered and went home to warn my father that we were in danger.

The very next day, a U-2 using a camera built and designed by my father, photographed what might have been missiles being taken to Cuba. My father is one of the founders of NASA as well as the CIA. He is a world expert in optics, rockets and covert activities. A few hours after the CIA got the pictures developed, the phone rang. The phone at this time was near my bedroom and I spied on my parents and exploited this to listen to their conversations. My dad often went to DC but this was different. As soon as he hung up, he frantically packed his bags. I thought he would drive off to the airport. But instead, from Davis Monthan came a helicopter. It landed in the horse pasture. My dad ran out and disappeared. We didn't see him for more than a week. Later, he told us how he was flown to DC in a two-seater military jet. He wore a helmet and had a parachute which we kept.

I was not easily fooled by the TV news. I often had inside information and thus knew when the news was lying about things. According to the official timeline, on October 17, President Kennedy met with my dad who had already looked carefully at the photos and had finally confirmed they were missiles. All the top brass were there and my father, being very classified, was also there but never gets mentioned due to him being 'invisible'. But Kennedy knew that my dad was friends with General Eisenhower and was very respected for his cool mind and lack of hysteria. He carefully explained the options and various possibilities and then stood aside. As the discussions began to be very dangerous, my father got on the phone to warn my mother.

I was in school so I didn't hear this call. At this point in time, virtually no one outside of the very top elites have the slightest idea a terrible confrontation was brewing. Our mother gives us instructions for what to do. If we hear many jets taking off from the military base, we are to drop everything and run like hell for the hills, even if we can't make it home, we are to leave the valley and go into the foothills of Mt. Lemmon and always keep the mountain's hills between ourselves and the line of sight of the valley of Tucson.

For the next week, the US and Russia were on the sword's edge of WWIII. Discussions of clearing cities were rejected. A lunatic suggestion that people would be safer in these Ground Zeros was actually broached by an unknown person during the meetings on October 24th. From the Kennedy Library Tapes which were declassified 10 years ago: Tape 36.1-36.1A, October 24, time unknown: Consideration of civil defense options and planning for possible Soviet responses in Berlin:

JFK concludes that if we invade in the next ten days, the missile base crews in Cuba will likely fire at least some of the missiles at US targets. He asks whether we could evacuate civilian populations from cities a few days before the invasion. [2:50] Response (voice unidentified) is that cities actually provide the best protection against radiation. [Source: JFK Library release notes prepared by Sheldon M. Stern] This tidbit of advice was given even though it was patently, obviously insane. I grew up in queer places like where various secret government programs were in effect, preparing for WWIII. So I had a very good idea how destructive these things were. I knew that Tucson would be vaporized in WWIII due to the ring of nuclear missiles there as well as the air force base. We kids had already blazed our own secret trails through the foothills into the mountains as our potential escape routes. If my dad had taken me to the White House with him, I would have given Kennedy a graphic description of what a nuclear bomb would do to a city. And why he shouldn't even consider exposing anyone to any of this, no matter what. But the same people who nuked two civilian cities in Japan and who knew perfectly well what hell awaited anyone exposed to a nuclear attack, they were not sane enough to explain this to the President.

And why didn't Kennedy, a military man himself, know this? I would suggest the occult nature of the nuclear program meant that things we take for granted today, were not known EVEN BY PEOPLE AT THE TOP back then. My own first raging battle with my dad dates from this period. I knew to run but I couldn't tell anyone else to run for the hills and the President wasn't going to tell anyone to run for the hills. I was outraged by this. I remember arguing with my playmates, trying to convince them that if I began to run straight for Mt. Lemmon, they were to come with me no matter what, no questions asked. They all promised to do this but thought I was joking. After all, the President was on TV telling us that all was under control. Two U-2s were shot down trying to take closer photos because my father thought the first ones were too fuzzy. This escalated the tensions, needless to say. Well.....Khruschev wasn't insane and neither was JFK and they resolved this via the old fashioned tools of diplomacy. Things were heating up between India and China and back then, the US imagined China was allied with Russia. My father came home and he took my mother off to India where they had many interesting adventures I can't tell anyone about.

The reason I bring all this up is several-fold: one thing we must remember is, the Pentagon is filled with people who don't really want to understand the nature of nuclear war. The think tank guys are supposed to imagine this but they also cannot do this since they all are doomed by religious wishful thinking as I explained earlier. I know this sort of mind-set. The idea that WWIII could be terminal or destroy too much of civilization, this just doesn't occur to them. They wipe it out of their thoughts. This inability to imagine the obvious is an important tool the mind uses to avoid fear of death. This tool we use to be 'sane' actually can make us be 'insane'. Weighing in the mind, the scales of justice and death is important and if this is killed off, humans can drive themselves into situations that lead to great destruction. Which is why honest discussion is so important. And the one thing the people charting the course of our nation don't want is exactly that: honest discussions. But events are forced upon us and we have to grapple with a thousand Gordian Knots! And the only way to do this is to look good and hard at reality and not fool ourselves. And we have to keep things in perspective. And understand how we can be sidetracked, lied to or self-deceiving. The human mind is a very dangerous thing indeed.

From 1984 by G. Orwell:

'That was forty,' said O'Brien. 'You can see that the numbers on this dial run up to a hundred. Will you please remember, throughout our conversation, that I have it in my power to inflict pain on you at any moment and to whatever degree I choose? If you tell me any lies, or attempt to prevaricate in any way, or even fall below your usual level of intelligence, you will cry out with pain, instantly. Do you understand that?'

'Yes,' said Winston.

O'Brien's manner became less severe. He resettled his spectacles thoughtfully, and took a pace or two up and down. When he spoke his voice was gentle and patient. He had the air of a doctor, a teacher, even a priest, anxious to explain and persuade rather than to punish.

'I am taking trouble with you, Winston,' he said, 'because you are worth trouble. You know perfectly well what is the matter with you. You have known it for years, though you have fought against the knowledge. You are mentally deranged. You suffer from a defective memory. You are unable to remember real events and you persuade yourself that you remember other events which never happened. Fortunately it is curable. You have never cured yourself of it, because you did not choose to. There was a small effort of the will that you were not ready to make. Even now, I am well aware, you are clinging to your disease under the impression that it is a virtue. Now we will take an example. At this moment, which power is Oceania at war with?'

'When I was arrested, Oceania was at war with Eastasia.'

Recently released secret documents in London showed that George Orwell was spied on by the British Government. All governments use schools to indoctrinate and propagandize populations. Religious organizations have parallel operations that do the same thing. Repetition coupled with wiping out important information we get accidentally is part of it, too. And planting false information, false memories, false beliefs is very much a powerful tool used in these doctrinaire battles. In the Vietnam war, the Pentagon talked about winning hearts and minds and I would joke, we won hatred and are driving ourselves insane. How can madmen win hearts and minds? It is impossible. Today, we hear more about winning hearts and minds in the Middle East, in Afghanistan, Pakistan, all over the place. Only we are losing our minds and winning hatred. The more the neo-cons toil to win hearts and minds, the more agonized everyone is. The need to understand why the US is at 'war' with a billion Muslims is of highest importance. When the US was reeling from the 9/11 attacks, Bush asked us to NOT talk about all this because we were 'good guys' and besides, the attackers were hitting us due to our love of liberty and freedom, not because we are oppressing, butchering and stealing in the Muslim world communities. The whole nation, going insane together, collectively decided the last thing we should examine is this life and death issue.

When I began my news service, it was due to more than one 'liberal' [sic] web site banning me or censoring me whenever I began to try to discuss bin Laden, the Palestinian people, the history of Judaism, WWII and the coming Apocalypse that WWIII will be. Even here, readers have begged me to never ever use the word, 'Jew', for example. Indeed, the need to stop the discussion of all this is very powerful for it has been implanted in our brains since WWII and the US use of nuclear bombs. Just as we are supposed to ignore the possibility that all our cities might be vaporized in one day, we have to ignore the hair triggers that have developed all over the world.

When Reagan was running for President, the space exploration community which I was part of was torn asunder by all this. Many were fearful of nuclear war since we were part of the think-tank system that was supposed to think about all this. I explained the need to apply diplomacy and to spread knowledge and make cultural contacts while the other side wanted to build a missile shield. William Safire told me, 'If we succeed, we can annihilate Russia!'

I was horrified and said, 'They will attack us before we put in the system for they expect us to attack them. This is insanity! There is no defense but diplomacy!' Reagan began to work on the missile defense system which is STILL ON GOING. The US space program has been running on half-steam all these years and China is rapidly catching up on us. Even as the Chinese showed us our system is useless, it continues out of inertia and because it makes people lots of money. But it would turn the world into a super-hair-trigger situation. Kennedy had two weeks to resolve the Cuban Missile Crisis. In the future, we will have two hours. So we have to worry about this possibility.

Back to the Middle East: Israel has nukes. The US never discusses this in public. It is still very much a state secret and the fact that Israel, a mad nuclear power, can launch WWIII unilaterally, is an issue the US public should discuss, urgently. And 9/11 is an important part of all this. For in the wake of that attack, the vast majority of Americans wanted to instantly respond with our own nuclear bombs...right next to China and Russia, in Afghanistan.

Now, on to the next topic: why people can't talk about WWIII but will stake their lives on discussions that are fruitless about skyscraper architecture and jets:

World Trade Center design. Click on image to enlarge:

The WTC buildings were crummy buildings. The design was made so there were no interior walls connecting the outer skin to the inner core. As we can see here, there are NO internal supports. The steel beams holding the cement floors were very precariously attached at both ends to the inner and outer parts of the building. I am a person who likes multiple-level systems so the failure of one part doesn't turn things into a house of cards. More than once in my life, I have walked past scaffolding only to turn back and warn the people using it, they hadn't secured it sufficiently. Then, if I am ignored, the scaffolding eventually collapses. The World Trade Center was a new concept and alas, a very bad concept. The thought was, nothing could ever happen that would need interior walls to support the weight of the building in a failure. We know obviously that this is true. Far from being solid structures, they were very weak. The outer skin was not stone, brick, cement and steel with interspacing windows. It was all windows with little between these things. I marveled at this and it made me very queasy. From the first day David worked on the 64th floor of the North Tower, I began to talk to him about leaving. Which he finally did.

Wikipedia:

The building was also known for its helicopter service to John F. Kennedy International Airport, a seven-minute flight that left from the rooftop helipad. This service was offered only between December 21, 1965 and February 18, 1968 and for a few months in 1977 and was ended after a spectacular accident that killed five people.[3][4] On May 16, 1977, a broken landing gear caused a parked Sikorsky S-61L with rotors still turning to tip over, killing four people who were outside the helicopter waiting to board, including exploitation filmmaker Michael Findlay. Part of a rotor blade sailed over the side of the building and killed a pedestrian on the corner of Madison and 43rd Street. Two other people were seriously injured.
Another notorious moment in the building's history was Eli M. Black's historic suicide on February 3, 1975. The CEO of United Brands Company (now Chiquita Brands International) used his briefcase to shatter an external window and then jumped out of the forty-four story window to his death on Park Avenue. This incident was an inspiration for a similar suicide in the 1994 film, The Hudsucker Proxy.

Modern buildings take advantage of lighter materials. But these are more vulnerable than older materials. Due to the nature of older brick, steel and mortar, the earlier sky scrapers like the one I worked in midtown, were far, far narrower and denser than the WTC or any of the other Trade Center buildings. When I worked in midtown, the government decided to begin again, the use of helicopters to fly people from the Pan Am building to Kennedy Airport. I had a bird's eye view of that helipad. Not only was it very noisy when I was trying to make international calls, it was nerve wracking. We always wondered if these would crash on us and one day, the blades flew off of one and killed a secretary. We all rose up in rage and demanded the city stop this madness. Whenever it was foggy, we would all remember how a WWII bomber flew into the Empire State Building after nearly clipping the building I was in. Being virtually at the top, I knew this was no small consideration. Recently, a Yankee picture plunged his plane into a building very nearby. But most of the midtown structures are older buildings. They don't have flat roofs. They are not solid windows. The new style is to have no exterior that is stronger than glass. So if anything were to slice into these buildings, they are destabilized. Unlike the older buildings.

Beyond the Towers: Performance of Masonry
By David T. Biggs, P.E., Ryan-Biggs Associates

Comparing the present with the past in the world around us can be an important learning experience. Such was the case for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE), in the difficult task of conducting an evaluation of the World Trade Center (WTC) and surrounding buildings.

The Event

On September 11, 2001, airplanes struck two 110-story office towers in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. The towers (WTC 1 and WTC 2) collapsed in less than two hours, and another building in the complex (WTC 7) collapsed later in the afternoon. These buildings had few or no masonry components. All of the surrounding buildings suffered damage from falling debris, wreckage, and fire from the towers. While the impact of portions of the collapsing buildings did the majority of harm, there was also damage from flying debris and air to the masonry used in their construction.

Below is a diagram showing clearly how the floors are barely attached to anything, they had these small clips holding them up!

The WTC used to hold the record for the most cement used in a building. But due to its size, the mass of the cement wasn't as great as smaller buildings. But the volume was gigantic. When the structures failed, they rained many tons of dust, stone and metal upon all the buildings surrounding them. The weight of all this, when it landed on FLAT roofs, was very tremendous. The older buildings didn't have vast, flat roofs so they didn't suffer from this weight load.

Masonry Performance: Verizon Building, 140 West Street

One of the closest neighbors to the WTC site, the 30-story Verizon building, is a steel-framed brick building constructed circa 1924. The typical floors, composed of concrete-encased steel beams and girders, are redundant and robust. The exterior face of the perimeter framing is encased in brick and serves as both exterior wall and infill. Header bricks connect the exterior brick to the backup and support the weight of the exterior wythe. Columns are also brick encased.

The façade, floors, and framing of the south and east sides of the building sustained heavy damage, as did several exterior columns. Although the framing deflected as much as 2 ft into the building, the masonry infill restrained the columns from collapse. The steel structure was not affected. None of the damage threatened the structural integrity of the building. And although there was a substantial fire in WTC 7, there were no fires reported in this building. It was never out of service. The structure was shored and repaired.

It is hard for people who are not experts to understand how fragile modern skyscrapers are. Much smaller buildings have caught on fire and not collapsed but then, they didn't have a huge hunk of the building's structure severed, first. And smaller planes cause smaller damage. There is no comparison with the WTC and the debris field this collapse caused. The only things that are similar are of course, nuclear bombs. But the failure of these buildings was probably inevitable since the structure was not aging well, in the first place. All buildings age and when the towers were going up, many of us said, 'How on earth can this be taken down safely?' I remember well, how the Port Authority said, the land around the Towers would be kept clear so that wouldn't be a problem. Only they didn't keep it clear at all, they kept building closer and closer and closer!

Masonry improved the performance of the Verizon building because:

Perimeter brick masonry walls absorbed much of the impact from both WTC 1 and WTC 7, resulting in less damage to the steel structure.

Masonry infill of the exterior wall provided a redundant load path and helped prevent collapse.

Framing damage was localized, partially due to masonry infill.

Exterior brick headers held the upper brick from collapsing above a damaged section.

Brick encasement of the columns and concrete encasement of the steel framing provided fire and impact resistance.

Built-up sections appeared to be more ductile and better able to absorb energy along with the masonry infill.

The building did not experience fire damage—masonry and (safety glass) windows limited penetrations through exterior walls.

Summary

In the towers themselves, the stairwell and elevator walls were constructed
of gypsum products. Evidence indicates most of the floors of impact were
damaged and rendered unusable. While it is presumptuous to assume that
masonry enclosures would have survived the attacks, it is obvious that more
durable wall systems would have improved chances for survival for occupants
above the level of impact. Future research should be devoted to evaluating
and developing durable, fire-rated egress enclosures for high-rise buildings.
Reinforced masonry and concrete are two effective solutions that can be used
without further development.

Example after example demonstrates how masonry helped prevent greater
destruction during the World Trade Center disaster. Some of the lessons learned:
Older framed buildings with masonry components performed generally better than newer buildings with lightweight curtain wall construction.

Masonry (walls, beams, partitions, infill) served as fireproofing and provided significant structural redundancy.

Masonry infill absorbed impact energy to minimize damage locally.

Masonry veneers and panelized systems are readily repaired.

Masonry proved in this event that it does more than simply enclose space; it
provides fire protection, structural capacity, and even structural redundancy.
It can provide safer enclosures for stairways or other exit routes, affording egress in high-rise buildings during emergencies.

The stairwells were built of SHEETROCK! Not cement. I remember those stairs and thought this was tacky back then. The lack of interior walls that were solid has much more to do with the collapse than anything else. These were bad buildings from day one. This is not unusual in architecture. For example, I had to fix many buildings in NYC that had 'cock-roofs'. This meant, a row of houses all had the same attic with no divisions. If one house caught on fire, they all burned. The city made this illegal long ago but the 'grandfathered' ones remained. And I would go in and build partitions. And these had to be fully fireproofed! Even small gaps had to be sealed carefully. We also know that houses in California with wooden fences are a danger to the neighborhood in places where the Santa Ana winds blow. Even today, such fences are still not outlawed. Though roofs made with wood are.

Buildings fail all the time. Bridges collapse. Dams give way. Space shuttles blow up. This is part of the hazards of life. But the thing we should worry about is how our leaders are leading us to possible wars. The level of complicity and carelessness or active engagement of the neo-cons and the Bushes in the 9/11 attacks cannot be proven unless we get ahold of all the classified documents and certainly, I call upon our government to release absolutely everything, all of it. But look at how long we had to wait for the Kennedy tapes! Over 30 years. Information about my father's activities in WWII weren't released until the mid-1980s. There is no excuse, none, for any of this secrecy!

All my life, I have demanded openness. The Bushes are tremendously secretive. They have withheld from Congress and the American people, incredible amounts of information we need to make wise choices, to avoid wars, to protect ourselves. Instead, we get a compliant Congress conspiring with him to impose upon us, many vile and unconstitutional laws and regulations which destroy our historic freedoms and rights. Congress has had a thousand reasons to impeach Bush and Cheney but will not do this. Instead, we are being herded along the path of war by all parties.

Kucinich is being attacked by the AIPAC/DNC because he talked about the forbidden stuff: the looming wars, bin Laden, our relations with Israel. Ron Paul suddenly has to go home to defend his own turf for the same reason. The conspirators who run both the top of the Democratic and Republican parties are anxious to make examples of the only two men I supported for President. Like Jimmy Carter, they will be driven out of public life. Both were make deliberately nearly as invisible as I am and for the same reasons: they can see what is going wrong and know that the neo-Nazi Jewish state is at the very root of this toxic tree of death.

We have to keep our focus on what matters! Stopping Israel's mad rush into WWIII is of highest importance. The fine details as to who did what on 9/11 won't be known unless we first flush out of Washington, the flood of money from pro-war lunatics who dream of world domination! The flood of money corrupting our system, the flood of money that is rapidly erasing anyone who talks about Israel's contributions to our deteriorating financial and diplomatic condition!

This is a very dangerous game. It is no fun, trust me on this. Several times in my life, people offered to make my life easier if I just drop this matter and never ever mention the Apocalypse and how Christians, Muslims and Jews will create it. If I were to talk about real estate or fluffy kittens or the weather, this is OK. But talking about WWIII is not OK! And are we ready for it?

Good grief. We no longer have even the pretense of trying to have any civil defenses. And this, too, is deliberate. Instead of talking about Building #7, if people could go in public and demand an end to the ethnic cleansing, if we could all demonstrate against the apartheid regime in Palestine, this and only this will save us from the looming horrors of the Apocalypse. And we have to force the Christians to face this. too. They have to see how they cannot beg Jesus to come just because the Age of Pisces is ending. Lord spare us! To see all humanity killed because a shift in the constellations don't match the theology is just too unbearable to think!

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Comments

[larry, dfh]

The Chrysler Building! My favorite, with those shiny ultra-satanic stainless-steel gargoyles. What a great view you had.

[Greg]

LOL i thought this was going to be the article that sealed the deal, converted the non believers....put WTC 7 to rest.....but alas.

we talk about Ron Pauls faltering campaign entirely it seems because he denounced the 911 truth movement (no mention at all that he was fucked over by the media!)

we quickly switch to Elvis and equally quickly we start dreaming. Now normally I dream about some 3 way action with the missus and some other hottie but maybe I subconsciously want to do it on the former WTC 7 rooftop?????

Then we spend some considerable time reminiscing about the Cuban missile crisis and JFK.

Then we talk about George Orwell and the book 1984

Then a few disjointed paragraphs about ww3, Reagan, Israel, missile defence, etc.

Ahh finally onto the nitty gritty.......the WTC....and architecture....

a couple of funny little cross sectional drawings of the WTC, with some commentary from Elaine that they were "crummy" and that scaffolds quite often fall down after Elaine walks past them....is that a spanner in your pocket or are you just pleased to see someone???? ;)

then a hard hitting wikipedia quote about a chopper fragging itself on the roof and a couple of sidewalk human pizza's.

some more commentary about noisy helicopters and other small craft hitting good old fashioned non flat roofed buildings.

now the main deal the article from masonry expert David T Biggs citing FEMA (yes FEMA that organisation that brought you such wonderful responses and solutions in New Orleans.) giving comment on "the event" and also the performance of the verizon building, and a funny little unscaled schematic shows us how the WTC was actually held together by 2 small hair clips stolen from Goldilocks.

then we are told how hard it is for us puny brained non experts to understand all this complicated big persons talk

then a whole pile of info about how masonry would have saved the day and defeated those dirty filthy terrorists.

Buildings fail all the time!!! I cant walk down a street without sidestepping all those non masonry flat roofed failing buildings falling into their own footprint.

Well that solved it all...IM CONVINCED!

Shheeet!!!!

The problem IS that we are ignoring the fine detail about things like WTC 7 and blaming five feet of concrete dust!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oswald did it.....move along nothing to see here, get on with your life!
Bi Laden did it....nothing to see here go shopping and get on with your life!

Its because we are ignoring the facts and the crime and the who did what and not exposing the criminals and not getting to the truth of these matters that we will never get anywhere on any of the other things that you talk about Elaine such as Palestine, ww3, the coming apocalypse.

you wont expose the crime and the criminals who committed it and therefore they are free to inturn commit bigger crimes and bigger atrocities because people like you were happy to turn a blind eye and focus on the patsy, the Oswald, the bin laden and ridicule just as bush, Cheney and the Fox news team do anyone that hasn't accepted the mainstream version of events and wants the truth.

wake up from the dream Elaine!

[Greg Q]

Hi Elaine,

I love your stuff and make it a point to read your blog everyday...but your a little off the track on this one.

I agree with you that we need to focus our attention on preventing WWIII, but Sept 11th is THE "pivotal" event of this new century. It guides our economic, military and social debates and policies.

I worked in 7 WTC for 6 years and saw first hand many strange "goings-ons". Lots of secret government guys and restricted access floors. But that's not a surprise since they all had offices there.

I, until recently, thought as you do. That the building must have been built poorly. This is false wishful "MAGIC" thinking by people who refuse to consider the law of gravity and inertia.

Without getting too boring or technical, the collapse of the WTC buildings violate these laws.

If they truly collapsed as a result of the planes crashing through support beams, the building would have taken more than 100 seconds to fall. Each floor would delay inertia 1/2 to 1 full second before continuing downward. In addition, the immense core structure would have remained in place and stood throughout the collapse. If that were not enough, seismic readings of over 2.2 on the rector scale were registered 10 seconds before the collapse of each building, except building 7, which had a seismic reading less than 1.5...Smaller building requires less explosive!

I do agree with you that the building should have been built better, but that does not or should not prevent people like yourself from looking at REAL science, which clearly discredits your argument. I know...because I thought the same as you until I looked at the science.

That fact is that the neo-cons and the New World Order needed Sept 11th to get us into wars, which will lead into WWIII so they can cover-up their reckless banking, fiscal, tax, spending and other MONEY AND CRIMINAL activities. In other words...a total BLACK-OPP!

So until you and millions of other people face the TRUTH about Sept 11th and get outraged...we can't take the steps needed to stop WWIII.

[blues]

I am not one of those people who seem to be programmed to have a fixed response to all questions about the WTC collapses. First, I want the truth. For without the truth, how will I ever fashion the much-needed appropriate lies?

But anyway. There are simply 10,000 things wrong with the official narrative, and I hardly know where to begin to bring them up. Let me just bring up one. Let's suppose that the twins really did "pancake," collapsing under their own weight. We all know that the buildings, unique in their time, were not supported by a steel "honeycomb" matrix, but rather by 47 very massive steel core (central) columns, in conjunction with a steel reinforced concrete exterior shell (but mostly just window glass).

If the outer shell collapsed, then the central steel columns should have endured. Suppose a plane hit the core columns head-on. The aircraft involved were made of frail aluminum (much of which contained kerosene). The result would be just like the result of a soda can being thrown at a boulder. The can would shatter, not the rock. The only substantial structures of the planes were their pairs of jet engines, which are (according to the reports) steel alloyed with titanium. But these engines are rather small, and could only dent, or perhaps rupture, a very few steel core columns. So at least most of the core columns should have remained relatively intact. But they did not.

I'm not yet sure why this is all so important, but something tells me it is. As far as Ron Paul is concerned, he was far less candid all along that his "followers" were led to believe. He could have just promised a new investigation. But, hell; he's even goofier than they are.

[Greg]

hmmmm umm errr ummmm

http://wirednewyork.com/skyscrapers/images/chrysler_empire_state_building_23march02.jpg

"The view on the Chrysler Building from the 86th floor observatory of the Empire State Building."

That cant be right can it???

the caption on that site surely must be wrong....I must contact them and tell em to get it right.

Then again I might not worry about it, let em think its taken from the Empire State why let such things as facts get in the way of a good story eh?????

;)

[Elaine Supkis]

Greg, dear child, I took an online photo. My view was slightly different. Gads, you are a mess.

Dear everyone: Even the dumbest conspiracy theory has to have some motivational logic. Again: since the 'bomb' theory has NO MOTIVATIONAL BASIS, it is just pure fantasy speculation. Humans don't do this sort of thing due to being lazy. They knew the planes would be hijacked. They let them be hijacked. They hit the targets and scared people. The hitting of the Pentagon was NOT expected.

This set our sleeping military into high gear. But the fact that they did nothing meant they were COMPLICIT and that is all we need to know to arrest Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

Indeed, the fact that they HID from us after 9/11 for several days to get their joint stories correct shows that the collapse made things WORSE for them.

Since it befuddled them, this is proof they didn't expect that event. And since no one here believes me in this analysis, I will fall back on the other side of my world view: I saw 9/11 a full month before it happened.

And I saw what was involved. This was the opening of a major portal to the Outer Darkness for the Apocalypse to enter. But that can be my personal pure fantasy except my entire family and a number of online people talked with me about this vision before it happened at American Prospect.

So if you want magic, there it is: the buildings were sucked into the vortex. Ha.

But I ask no one to believe that business so we stick to normal human actions and the actions of Bush and Cheney on 9/11 shows they were FRIGHTENED when the buildings collapsed.

And this is at the root of the people who want to imagine darker conspiracies: you are elevating Bush to godhood here. Don't do it, please. Don't. He is an incompetent fool, or rather , the Fool on the Beast coming out of the Storm.

Not the Creator. Bin Laden is the Creator in this matrix. Something few of the conspiracy people want to admit or believe.

[Elaine Supkis]

Greg Q.: Building 7 had a lot of CIA stuff. So...why the hell would they blow it up? Logic has to lie here somewhere. I wonder why there is this obsession with the idea they had to blow things up when all rational thinking would point to the exact opposite. And the real proof they didn't blow it up is the fact that there were no sounds or sights of a blow up.

I can't explain this enough: blowing up buildings is so very loud, you cover your ears if you are standing 10 blocks away. I have been part of the witnesses to the blowing up of skyscrapers in the past. The bombs going off also have a brilliant flash, not a reddish glow. It is blindingly bright!

And the sound is like a huge series of guns going off since they don't go off instantly, together, there is a time lag.

NONE of this happened on 9/11. None. So even visual/sound proofs of bombs are TOTALLY MISSING. Get that?

I also do not see any connection with believing bombs went off and resisting Bush and Cheney. The anthrax killer is much more connected to them yet no one talks about that. The US won't impeach these guys due to their helping Israel. And getting a replacement won't fix things since AIPAC wants a tool in the White House and we will be NO BETTER OFF if we drive Bush and Cheney out.

As for crimes: both men are war criminals and we should try them for that but the US won't admit we are Nazi Germany. The bomb business doesn't fix that mess, either. So believing in these phantom bombs won't alter history, stop the Apocalypse or change squat diddley so why the obsessions over it?

This truly puzzles me. I think none of you will come here again due to my refusal to fall into this bizarre story line that sprang up online after 9/11 at around mid-November that year. And frankly, I don't care if all the 'Truthers' tell me to go to hell.

Just as I won't stop talking about Israel and other unpleasant things.

Also, due to the illogical nature of this belief system, you guys have shut down ALL discussion of 9/11. You realize this? Most of the 9/11 truthers are very nasty and use obscene curses and in general, sound nuts. I will admit, this annoys me greatly.

That, and the nit picking. Like Greg, above, who makes fun of me using an online picture which is fairly close to my view in 1977. Only I was to the east of where the picture was taken.

The need to mock me is part of his psychosis. He has to feel bitter elevation of his own sagacity. He is not fooled! He is powerful! He is smart!

Gads. But to me, he is a nit picker who can't see the log in his own eye while looking for splinters in other people's eyes.

Since few people trust my political sense, I can't stop anyone from this destructive course. Calling for a release of all 9/11 data and materials and for a new investigation is very proper. And should be the focus of all your collective ire.

But attaching this demand to the demand that all of us believe this particular fantasy has DIVIDED THE COMMUNITY. It has cut off totally, the people wanting investigations and release of data from the 'truthers' who want us all to believe something that has virtually no positive proof at all. Can anyone see what I am getting at?

Drop the bomb business. Say the collapses were mysterious and need investigation. As far as I can tell, you guys are already convinced and no investigation will shake your faith which is rather sad, I may add.

For this weakens you politically. See?

On the other hand, OFF THE CLIFF WE GO. Whee.

[Elaine Supkis]

Since I cannot dissuade long time readers here, I realize it is impossible to stop this particular train wreck. It has a life of its own and people who believe in this business will cut themselves off from all objections and end up in some corner of the web, boosting each other's beliefs. This is what the government wants above all else: mental isolation from the vast majority of people. This way, you can't form coalitions and joint efforts.

Just as we see no peace movement. It was splintered by the desire of the Zionist anti war people refusing to allow any demonstrations talk about or deal with the Palestinian questions.

Rather than allow that, they worked to prevent any peace movement actions at all. Ditto the impeachment movement which was beginning to gather some steam in 2004 but died when Bush gave Israel the green light to attack Lebanon.

When I was in the peace movement in the sixties, I was in the disarmament sector. This was a powerful movement until 1974. Suddenly, it died. Very rapidly. At that time, I wondered why.

Then, in the 1990's, we learned that Israel got nukes back then.

This is the sort of conspiracy stuff we should worry about. Instead of worrying about mythical bombs, let's worry about REAL BOMBS. The global nuclear arsenal which is growing. This is why I talked about Kennedy here.

Focus on the important things, everyone! In this case, nuclear disarmament!

[JSmith]

"So time to address this issue, I say."

God, Elaine... as I was reading down this thing I was thinking "Wait'll you hit the comments."

And sho' 'nuff... the usual suspects.

Elvis sightings... alien abductions... and 911Truthers. Some people believe "X-Files" was a documentary.

I've found the best reaction isn't reational discussion - the best reaction is "Whatever you say!" Then you bail. Because nothing at all is ever going to convince some people that they haven't discovered the "inside story".

[Chris]

I agree with Elaine that the important thing is to clear up what actually happened on 9/11. I was watching the schmaltzy (good Yiddish word there) Aaron Brown on CNN that day, and couldn't help but reflect how staged the whole thing appeared, with big leading headlines about how America was under attack and fast cuts to Palestine. For example CNN and the BBC both reported that Building 7 had collapsed well before it actually did. And all the lies that the Bush administration so desperately spouted in the coming days like Condoleeza Rice's preposterous claim that nobody could have imagined an attack with airplanes. Practically every intelligence service in the world was frantically busy warning the US about impending attacks just before the attacks occurred. Yet they were allowed to occur. That is the only possible conclusion to be drawn. The whole 9/11 story stinks to high heaven any way you look at it. The mystery is why there is so little pressure to bring it all out in the open. But I think people (Americans) are simply afraid to find out how deep the rot goes. It is much the same reasoning that keeps people from demanding the arrest of Bush, or at least the impeachment of him for his numerous crimes. It seems it is better to simply live in denial as long as you can than to confront painful truths that have real consequences for your life and basic world view...

[Daliwood]

"...the Pentagon is filled with people who don't really want to understand the nature of nuclear war. The think tank guys are supposed to imagine this but they also cannot..."

Exactly. About 20 years ago, I was assigned to be the editor for a very prominent Civil Defense expert who had published volumes about living in the post-nuke-holocaust world. Within 6 months, I asked to be reassigned. Most of his articles were about re-establishing the banking system after WWIII. Or Wall Street. Or department stores. He even had articles about how to purify water using chemicals from the local pool supply manufacturing plant.

"This is nuts," I remarked one day. "These people think we'll all stand up after the big one, dust ourselves off a little bit, and then wonder if the ATM card is still functioning."

I never read one article that seemed to grasp the magnitude of a nuclear war. In my mind, the detonation of a single device would be inconceivably evil and destructive, but the experts were nonchalantly speculating about hundreds of bombs going off. Where I imagined the entire earth as a hellish inferno incapable of sustaining any life above ground, they saw the post-apocalyptic world as the equivalent of a Sunday picnic spoiled by a thunderstorm and needing to be re-scheduled.

Luckily, I was re-assigned. The expert continued his fantasies and publications--the "stop, drop, and roll" variety; and he continued to enjoy the admiration of his peers and the Pentagon. He later died, but there's always another expert to fill the small shoes of think tank writers.

[Bruce]

Since few people trust my political sense, I can't stop anyone from this destructive course. Calling for a release of all 9/11 data and materials and for a new investigation is very proper. And should be the focus of all your collective ire.

But attaching this demand to the demand that all of us believe this particular fantasy has DIVIDED THE COMMUNITY. It has cut off totally, the people wanting investigations and release of data from the 'truthers' who want us all to believe something that has virtually no positive proof at all. Can anyone see what I am getting at?"

good points, but the "truthers" are most definitely NOT wanting everyone to just believe the bombs theory. They ARE calling for investigations and DO want to know the truth, WHATEVER it is. (this cap thing is fun, Elaine). This is why I defend "them" when I see them all lumped as crazies, a cult, etc. Sure, there are some like that, but let's not get carried away.

[Elaine Supkis]

Exactly what is wrong, Bruce. If there were calls for investigations thanks to LACK OF INFORMATION we can persuade people to join us.

The minute you begin to talk wildly about bombs rather than jets causing the collapses, people edge away. Especially when the eyes begin to bulge and the person waves their arms!

Thanks to growing up inside the CIA, I sound like I am nuts all the time. Each time the US has to cough up classified material, my nutty talk becomes truth.

But in this case NOTHING has been coughed up at all. So pegging everything on the supposition there were bombs is futile. Indeed, if there were no bombs [and frankly, there were none] then you all look like nuts, see?

People won't join you, they will side with anyone who says this is nutty! So what did you gain?

NOTHING. On the other hand, if you guys only said to others who are calling for an investigation, 'Yeah, we may be wrong and we are just guessing.' you lose nothing at all, you sound sane.

But the clinging to this bizarre idea is the hinge: believers in this bomb story end up extremists attacking their allies. Which is why I believe this whole crackpot story was launched by black ops people hoping to isolate critics. It certainly is working great.

[Elaine Supkis]

Anyone reading the comments here can plainly see the fury of the 'bomb' people. They can't debate, they shout their 'information' and then any counter information is not refuted, it is ignored.

And I decided to drag this out into the open because it frankly irritates me a lot. Just like the followers of Saacha at that spook site irritates me a lot. I suspect she is a collective misinformation site run by operatives in the CIA.

The government has focused their DARPA misinformation programs on the web and they figured out in the last three years, running spooky conspiracy web sites is the way to go.

I am not part of this because I use my real name which can be confirmed. Anyone who wants to use the Freedom of Information Act to look at a censored version of my files may and more than one reporter has done this.

But I see people holding dear, web sites run by strangers with strange agendas. And the need to feel as if we know more than we know is strong and this is exploited by DARPA. Anyone who disputes the 'bomb' story is probably your friends, not your enemies. The people who agree with you, at the top, the top web sites promoting all this are possibly DARPA mouthpieces. They will encourage you all to attack any doubters.

This happened to poor Ron Paul, for example. Now, the wrath of AIPAC who holds a lot of power, will be unleashed on him and he knows this.

[Elaine Supkis]

Hi, Daliwood! Hope you are well. Fascinating story you tell. I knew some of these guys, a sister of mine married a DARPA man who got in a vicious battle with me over some domestic issues and I got the Secret Service to pull his top security clearance.

He was one of the nuts who thought we could flourish after WWIII. The removal of the vast majority of the people would mean more room for himself and his buddies. They are all totally insane. And extremely dangerous. If they could, they would destroy NYC in an eyeblink.

And being smart, they know all they have to do is egg on some murderous person and then not defend us. It is that simple.

[JSmith]

"I believe this whole crackpot story was launched by black ops people hoping to isolate critics. It certainly is working great."

That's why it's not "black ops"; it has the unmistakable flavor of conspiracy-theorist nuttery, including the fervor and commitment. You don't get that from a planted story, only from the home-brewed variety.

[Bruce]

"So pegging everything on the supposition there were bombs is futile. "

Elaine, you are attacking, you insult anyone who doesn't abide by your theory with the same old "crazies' inuendo. You are invested in your theory. It's ironic, isn't it? Is it projection, or do you do it on purpose?

Here you go, Elaine. Here is a perfect example: "The minute you begin to talk wildly about bombs"

Elaine, I don't talk wildly about bombs, nor do most people. They speculate, and they make good points. They also present their information with respect to the audience and do not seek blind belief.

"So pegging everything on the supposition there were bombs is futile. "

Wrong again, Elaine. 9/11 questioners do not peg everything on bombs.

"They can't debate, they shout their 'information' "

This from the all-caps writer! there are any number of places on the Web to find good information from good people on 9/11. Any reader who takes the time to explore will instantly see where the strength of argument is and who is wild and shouting inconsistent speculations.

[Jim B]

Elvis died due to an overdose of drugs? Well, you don't know that. Do you?

Just keeping you honest, as they say.

[Bruce]

"I would even joke, 'Yeah, he has to hide from his own fans because they are insane.' "

Dang, Elaine. Don't insult Elvis fans too!

[Greg Q]

Hi Elaine,

I still love your stuff in spite of your disagreeing with me.

My comment only regards the SCIENCE of the law of gravity and inertia.

It is impossible for buildings of that size...with reinforced fire stops every 60 floors...to collapse at the rate of free fall.

It has never happened before and never will without assistance. NO WAY...NO HOW!

I "get" your politics and love your wisdom on almost everything. 911 truth is NOT my religion. I came to my own conclusion, thank you. So I am not married to it. Just show me the proof of how the collapse of those building, which violated every rule of science, could have happened.

By the way, seismic readings were taken that day...the facts are the facts...2.1 and 2.3 on the rector scale 10 seconds before each building fell. It was felt and heard!

As for the Pentagon, it's time for the Government to show us the film of the plane going in. Then they can shut everyone up in 2 seconds.

There is a film shot from Hoboken, NJ that clearly shows the science and the flashes of explosives. It is www.911eyewittness.com

Anyway...I love your stuff. I am a loyal reader and will continue to be.

[Bruce]

"'bomb' theory has NO MOTIVATIONAL BASIS,"

If there were bombs used to induce collapse it would make sense. Two towers hit by hijacked planes are not the same has two towers, uh, well, exploding (it looks more like "explode" than "implode". not trying to prove anything, just sayin). One is tragic, and a crazed and vicious act, the other is a shock and awe, a "New Pearl Harbor" a proper catalyst for a war.

[notgonnatellya]

sure they were scared when the towers fell, that wasn't part of the plan they were aware of. a real "oh shit" moment there. and they can't admit or investigate what they didn't know, because then it would be plain what they did know.

Elaine, make a simple connection...you have the info, you're just missing the connection.

but i totally agree that part of the "9/11 truth" movement is bullshit...it's false-flag...just enough misinformation to keep the weak-minded confused with ridiculous theories, which gives the anti side anough ammo to keep people like you calling the whole thing nuts.

good job there, Elaine. doing exactly what they want.

[blues]

All the police and fire personnel who were present when the twin towers collapsed emphasize that the collapses were preceded by "explosions — TREMENDOUS EXPLOSIONS." Yet this detail goes completely ignored. Why?

[notgonnatellya]

exactly, blues.

Elaine wrote:
NONE of this happened on 9/11. None. So even visual/sound proofs of bombs are TOTALLY MISSING.

wrong. totally wrong. i've seen the videos that show the explosions occurring below the fall. i remember the descriptions of explosions, and the early theories that there were bombs planted because of the sounds heard at the site.

for the majority of people that sees to have all gone into a 1984 memory hole.

[mock turtle]

elaine,

how did wtc 7, which was not struck on 911, collapse when buildings nearly as close to the north and south towers remained standing?

where was the 4th plane headed before those brave souls fought for control of the jet liner forcing it into the ground in PA?

i don't know exactly what happened on 911. i do believe that repeatedly FBI agents in 3 states covering 3 separate investigations came forward to superiors with information and requests for actions that would have likely stemmed these attacks and these agents were stymied.

finally, if anybody had told me that 6 years after 911 that murderous bastard OBL would still be at large on the boarder of pakistan and afghanistan i would have called them a liar.

the lies this administration has told to confabulate false connections between the war in iraq and the takfiri salafists (islamic-extremist-terrorists) destroyed all their credibility with me.

maybe these buildings fell as claimed and maybe they didn't...i'm not sure.

but please, in these terrifying times, in your bid to seem more balanced don't risk pandering to the other side.

i love my country and fear for our children's future. i enjoy your blog and thank you for it, but please, be fact based. after all , lets face it, the thought police are using screening programs to "read" all these blogs, and they already have us all pegged.

mock turtle,

ps...when you talk about harmonic days and magic numbers i'm not sure if you are a metaphysical genius or a little insane?