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Pluto

A couple of thoughts on this, Elaine: I watched those hearings and suspended disblief in order to understand where they were going with this. I think we both agree that the US is in transformation, economically, to a globally-owned entity -- a nation of non-mobile (no money to leave) workers to exploit. That transition, I believe, can be made in a calm fashion using the formulas presented to the Senate that you also quoted above.

I agree with all of your conclusions -- however, it strikes me that the reaction to this reality varys greatly depending on your willingness to accept it. Your reaction is distressed because you want America back again. You want it to be what it once was. Yet, you know intellectually that this is not possible. The bell has been rung. Our resources are gone.

I'm angry about it, too. But I must be pragmatic, as well. Freedoms in the US must be severely curtailed during and after this transition. News must be blacked out. Chaos and panic must be avoided. It doesn't take great powers of intelligence to figure this out. In a way -- it's a kindness to Americans so they have time adjust while being told they are secure.

But smart people, like you, Elaine, know what is going on. So many of them are making plans to leave, getting second passports, opening foreign accounts. Many more have already left.

I think this is really an issue about how you want to live the rest of your life. The US isn't coming back. It might not be so bad to live here after the borders "close." I personally am not willing to take that risk. But if you are willing to, why push against what has already happened? Why not use your most valuable preceptions to turn a profit on it and make your own life better?

Of course, you are doing what you love most, I think. And maybe I've just made a circular argument. In any event, your writings are brilliant and much admired. And you home does sound like a safe sanctuary.

OC

Pluto,

Things are bad and will get worse but ultimately US will recover.

Just recall what happened to Russia..she recovered after the Dragon gave a helping hand. The terms of aid was not harsh - recent polls indicated most Russians think of the Dragon as their best friend.

It's just a bad patch that all nations go through in this world. Every nation has a turn and it's part of the learning process. US still have lots of resources and talent to come out of this better than before.

Not all enemies are 'real' enemies and not all friends are 'real' friends. We all have to get the knack of seeing things the way they really are and not because 'TV' says so!!

Elaine Meinel Supkis

I am a daughter of the founders of this nation. Since the very first day, the first English and first French to come to North America and on top of this, I have some native Indian blood so I am very American.

I have no desire to leave. I love to travel and have lived overseas and really enjoy other people's cultures and lives.


I also want my stupid nation to respect all other nations' sovereignty and cultures! We must be a world of equals! I respect China and Russia as well as the good people in the Middle East and Africa. I recognize how my own people have harmed them in the past!

But I want my nation to be saved. This is what 'patriotism' is all about. All people in all nations should want their nations preserved.

stevo

I liked the original three tenors better -- Gigli, Martinelli, and Bjorling! They were masters of their craft and performed in accordance with the best natural principles -- nothing was forced: the most inspiring, stratospheric notes were firmly supported by expert diaphragm/voice box coordination. Their performances, more often than not, proceeded exactly as they intended.

Your three tenors are mere dilettantes who employ the pseudoscience of economics to play around with short-term interest rates, repos, and reserve levels to generate both intended and unintended consequences. I wonder what are the likely unintended consequences of: 1) an economy on permanent war footing; 2) a debt-based money supply; 3) an economy supported by service rather than manufacturing; 4) widening disparity between haves and have nots (2% of population owns 84% of assets -- up from 50% in 1950); and 5) abdication of Constitutional responsibility by comgress and the Supreme Court?

Oh, well! As Keynes said, "in the long run, we are all dead."

blues

A few thoughts here from my primitivist perspective (not the fancy financial analysis, just down to nuts and bolts). Here's the deal: in 20 years there will be no oil. Coal will not get us very far either. (There is a small chance that nuclear fusion could make a big difference. Unlike Elaine, I do not see photovoltaic cell power as being viable in the long run. Areas that are used for this would be unavailable for agricultural uses, of course. The world would look very strange. Plus, photovoltaic cells only last 10 to 20 years (they "bleach out"). Worse yet, (probably) all known materials for photovoltaic cell production require extreme energy, are ultra toxic, etc. Worst of all, one large solar coronal mass ejection aimed at the earth could wipe out all power! However, concentrating solar thermal systems (CST) could be most useful for materials production that requires extreme high temperature.

So I think it will come down to wind power and wave power. Storage will be a huge problem. I have suggested compressed air, although it is relatively inefficient. I have often suggested that the alternators of junked vehicles should be conserved now, not disassembled for their copper, since they could be used with windmills to generate electricity. (No one seems much interested, though.)

What I am really trying to convey here, however, is that the entire world had better get ready for a new low energy lifestyle. That doesn't sound like a lot of fun, but it beats the hell out of no lifestyle at all.

If we really want much energy, we need to get going on fusion reactor power right now, since we will not ever attain it in the coming low energy world. The whole industrialized world is now working on this, except for (as far as I know) the US. We are putting all our energy into losing oil wars. But we are not really very industrialized now anyway.

Whatever world comes, it will undoubtedly be quite labor intensive, in the sense of industry intensive. I really doubt that the people who have studied for 20 years to become insurance company operatives are cut out for that. Farmers are, but scholars not so much. Our absurd "service economy" will leave the US at a huge disadvantage relative to most of the rest of the world.

The only silver lining might be that, since we need to build a whole new productive system from scratch, we could try for reasonable, humane, and nonpolluting technologies. We will not be able to afford wars. I think the way to reduce wars is to create real democracy. That requires controlling extreme wealth and power inequalities. It also requires runoff-with-approval voting on both legislation and representation.

Getting past the Hubbert's Peak oil crash without apocalyptic war will be the first challenge. That will require planetary as well as national patriotism.

For those of you who have not seen it, go see Life After the Oil Crash:

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Elaine Supkis

All energy systems have limits. I lived without any energy except Victorian stoves and lamps for many years. I am not unaware of how one can live with virtually no energy systems.

About the crash: just like ancient Rome had wonderful warm public baths and then the Dark Ages didn't know a bathtub from a beer barrel, so humans adapt.

Elaine Supkis

And the three tenors: I like three sopranos=CAT FIGHT! Better than a hockey game. They can compete to see who gets the best kid glove diva treatment!

And then there is the Fat Lady Sings contest: the three Norns versus the Greek Furies. The one who sings WWIII into being wins.

blues

Capitalism has destroyed the United States.

The opposite of capitalism is not communism, or even necessarily socialism; it could be just "reasonableism."

I am not going to hand out the descriptions of capitalism of Marx, or of "political science." (They were long and clunky, if memory serves — but you know I always start from scratch — none of this "standing on the shoulders of giants" bullmanure for me!) Today you get the blues description of capitalism.

Capitalism is all about competition as a virtue. A "virtue?" HARDLY! Unbridled competition leads to chaos. You need a bigger, gas consuming SUV than the Joneses! You need a bigger, a more hard to keep house than the Joneses!

Look folks; this must inevitably lead to what? Conspicuous consumption! You need a bigger gas-guzzling SUV; you need a bigger gas-guzzling home, than the Joneses! And you do; and you know it! Plus you need some lame-ass "education" to suck the last vapor out of the final layers of inequity — say it ain't so! It's all about "competition," isn't it? So you compete to be a chump to those professors, whom you hate. And you compete to be a chump to those bosses, whom you despise — do I kid you?

The founders of the United States said NOTHING about competition. It was all about DIVERSITY! Yeah, diversity does imply competition, but ONLY as a side-effect! One must break eggs to make an omelet, sure; but does that make breaking eggs some kind of a virtue? NO! The omelets are nice, but that does not elevate the breaking of eggs to some kind of virtue.

So we bowed to the Golden Calf of competition, and where did that get us? It got us to where we are today — the middle of nowhere. Competition is no "virtue," far from it. It leads to chaos; and in the end, to wars! The only real solution is to maximize diversity, and not worship competition. Is that what we've done? — No! Just the opposite! And this will surely kill us all.

So let's stop all this bullmanure about how having more makes us somehow better. No more radical inequality. Let every man and woman own no more than ten times what it takes to make a livelihood, and maintain a family. If they own too much, let them go to jail for six months, until they learn to live reasonably. We have no need of "great talents." Good God, the great talents have never EVER been compensated! So let's get real. Too much money, and too much power, are the real plague of our times. The world must move on.

blues

Capitalism has destroyed the United States.

The opposite of capitalism is not communism, or even necessarily socialism; it could be just "reasonableism."

I am not going to hand out the descriptions of capitalism of Marx, or of "political science." (They were long and clunky, if memory serves — but you know I always start from scratch — none of this "standing on the shoulders of giants" bullmanure for me!) Today you get the blues description of capitalism.

Capitalism is all about competition as a virtue. A "virtue?" HARDLY! Unbridled competition leads to chaos. You need a bigger, gas consuming SUV than the Joneses! You need a bigger, a more hard to keep house than the Joneses!

Look folks; this must inevitably lead to what? Conspicuous consumption! You need a bigger gas-guzzling SUV; you need a bigger gas-guzzling home, than the Joneses! And you do; and you know it! Plus you need some lame-ass "education" to suck the last vapor out of the final layers of inequity — say it ain't so! It's all about "competition," isn't it? So you compete to be a chump to those professors, whom you hate. And you compete to be a chump to those bosses, whom you despise — do I kid you?

The founders of the United States said NOTHING about competition. It was all about DIVERSITY! Yeah, diversity does imply competition, but ONLY as a side-effect! One must break eggs to make an omelet, sure; but does that make breaking eggs some kind of a virtue? NO! The omelets are nice, but that does not elevate the breaking of eggs to some kind of virtue.

So we bowed to the Golden Calf of competition, and where did that get us? It got us to where we are today — the middle of nowhere. Competition is no "virtue," far from it. It leads to chaos; and in the end, to wars! The only real solution is to maximize diversity, and not worship competition. Is that what we've done? — No! Just the opposite! And this will surely kill us all.

So let's stop all this bullmanure about how having more makes us somehow better. No more radical inequality. Let every man and woman own no more than ten times what it takes to make a livelihood, and maintain a family. If they own too much, let them go to jail for six months, until they learn to live reasonably. We have no need of "great talents." Good God, the great talents have never EVER been compensated! So let's get real. Too much money, and too much power, are the real plague of our times. The world must move on.

Pluto

Elaine, you wrote:

I am a daughter of the founders of this nation.... I want my nation to be saved. This is what 'patriotism' is all about. All people in all nations should want their nations preserved.

I'm taking my cues from the founders of this nation. They had the courage to abandon their nations and forge a new life elsewhere -- for what they later defined as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The word "patriotism" is a meme that makes people weak, not strong. It allows people to commit atrocities against other nations without guilt or moral compromise. The word "patriotism" disabled the minds of the people of America. It is an evil meme.

Were it not for the Founders of this Nation -- I would not know what moral resoultion is, when the time comes to leave your nation behind and pursue freedom for freedom's sake.

OC you wrote:

Things are bad and will get worse but ultimately US will recover.

It's just a bad patch that all nations go through in this world. Every nation has a turn and it's part of the learning process. US still have lots of resources and talent to come out of this better than before.

Um... no. It's not similar to any history except the early history of the US -- when we were a foreign-owned colony. Within the next 10 months we will be largely foreign-owned.

Being foreign-owned is not a bad patch. What we, in the US call "assets" and "resources" are collatoral for debt owned by others.

This is not a bad patch. It's a whole new reality. However, I do admire your optimism and hope. You must have a high level of seratonin. Lucky duck.

Pluto

Blues, you wrote:

There is a small chance that nuclear fusion could make a big difference.

Actually, until recently I shared this view. Lately, I've been following Dr Bussard's work in New Mexico, winner of the 2006 Outstanding Technology of the Year Award.

Dr Bussard is the former Assistant Director of the US Atomic Energy Commission, he was the father of the US Fusion effort from the 1970's into the 1980's. For the last 11 years he has been working under US Navy contracts. Now, the European Union is funding his work. Dr Bussard says he can build a proof of concept reactor by about 2011. The ITER reactor in Europe will be finished by 2013.

I find it interesting that New Mexico hosts the emerging EMC2 FUSION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION. And typical that foreign nations are now funding (owning) the technology. Maybe they'll sell some energy to the US when they go live.

RB

Another huge problem/controversy--energy sources.

First it was slavery, then animal power, some wind/water, wood/coal/steam, oil/electrical and atomic. The basic driving force behind the need for more power is sloth, IMO. What king,emperor or prospective fat cat likes to work? Then there are the perks like power and privilege.

The usual alternative energy nostrums such as wind, solar, wave, etc. are too little, too late, too expensive, and too intermittent. And none receive the serious support of the entrenched energy barons.

Comes now the topic of energy from the vacuum/zero point/ether which has been tapped for at least 100 years now but is totally ignored or rudely suppressed. If the US survives as a badly battered but sovereign state, it could still manage self-sufficiency within its borders by quickly developing the proven, demonstrable and patented devices which draw free energy from the vacuum, except for the initial cost of the device. This would decentralize power production--think of every home of business with its own energy source.It would overnight remove the fighting over hydrocarbon fuels. City smog would vanish.

For those new to the concept of energy from 'somewhere else' see these links for a starter:
http://www.icehouse.net/john34/
and
http://www.cheniere.org/

Only a repudiation of the present system and its controllers will allow these dormant but available technologies to flourish.

Note to blues: Would the concept of (true) free enterprise trump capitalism?

Pluto

To RB:

Interesting comment and very interesting links. Obviously this technology is being supressed or ignored in the US, but SIVs are picking them up these days and owning the patents. What the heck -- they can afford to. The only way that the US could afford it is to borrow the money from foreign nations. How silly would they be to lend money for a technology they could own.

As for the US becoming a "badly battered but sovereign state" -- the only "sovereignity" the US will experience is the graciousness" of our foreign overlords to "pretend" that we are.

This has been going on for a long time.

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46vuwLxRU7I

A nice clip with Jussi Björling. He has such a great support he almost throws the two girls in his arms off the set on the final note hehe.

Elaine Meinel Supkis

I have some of his recordings, Chris. Especially Wagner.

Energy: there are all sorts of systems out there. All have draw backs. All require energy to create energy [even oil and coal]. The problem isn't the desire for energy it is the economics of energy. Human slave labor is the biggest and frankly, cheapest sort of energy which is why it has existed for thousands and thousands of years.

When other systems cost more than slave labor, we fall back into slave labor. Perhaps there is a formula that can express this?

PW

We need hydrogen powered vehicles and cold fusion.

All the money we spent on war could have developed that technology by now.

Fucking blood thirsty assholes.

Chris

Will cheap energy fix our problems? If there was enough energy and food for all on our planet, wouldn't there still be contention, war and strife? Wouldn't we simply increase our numbers until the new system was failing again? And would not some people still want to dominate over others?

blues

It's simply a question of balance, Chris. Military freaks want more soldiers. Religious freaks want more family fugitives to their dogma. Real spirituality would warn against these insane things.

The inevitable energy decline will be terrifying. People addicted to money, power, and privilege need to be kept away from sane society, or they will kill us all. They are literally serial killers.

Unfortunately, we have allowed ourselves to be conned into letting them take control of our media organs, including the colleges and churches. Have you heard Nut Limbaugh lately? Time for them to be sent to the islands. Get smart or die.

blues

~~Note to blues: Would the concept of (true) free enterprise trump capitalism?~~ — RB

Well, RB, people that are in business basically (should) have no time to worry about "free enterprise." Weirdly out of character, I found myself running what amounted to a small business (president of a small corporation). The big concern was about keeping that second set of books in order. (Creative accounting is surely a fine art.) It all involves owning or controlling assets, and finding out that people are attracted to assets like moths to flames. Build it and yes, they will come for it. All enterprise is "free." It's a free license to have a headache! Even in the old Soviet Union, headache licenses were freely available. The "free enterprise" bullmanure is merely a mindtrap for the folks who watch too much TV news. It just keeps people worried about nonexistent "problems."

Chris

It's an age old problem. Idealists lead the revolutions or upheavals, then often enough the criminally insane take over.

Then the new rulers impose strict laws and directives in order to control the society and stay in power. They overspend on the military and luxury for themselves. Then the nation loses it's dynamic and stagnates as the rulers enforce their propaganda and start to channel resources (human and natural) into the politically correct channels designed to support them, and them only.

Eventually the nation starts to crumble as it is hollowed out from within. To prevent this the rulers impose stricter and stricter security measures and cut more and more people off the channels to power. All systems become extremely rigid yet brittle, and eventually they crumble under some new dynamic force that emerges. This new force can be even worse than the previous one, or perhaps it brings the foundation of a new civilization.

One interesting phenomena is that in this ever changing world, we hardly ever see where the next dynamic for change is going to come from. Be it political or economic or social. It is invisible to us even as it is readily present. The Romans failed to see the dangers (to them) presented by the Christians. They thought the Christians were just another sect in the line of Mitras like religious worshipers. The Nazis went from being pub brawlers in Munich to ruling the nation ten years later. The Christians brought a new civilization eventually. The Nazis death and destruction. In a more direct sense the Chinese were blindsided by the Mongols. The Incas by the Conquistadors. Tsarist Russia by the Communists. (All of them used slave labor in one form or other too. Slave labor supports the West to this day.)

Obviously we need to improve our energy systems, that can only be a good thing, but that is no cure for all ills.

It is very telling that so many Americans feel cut off from those in power. The powers that be have consolidated in their own enclaves. And to get access to those enclaves, and become an insider, you have to pass many doors, and many tests, so they can make sure you are one of them. Even if you start out well meaning, by the time they are through with you you will be hopelessly contorted and have all kinds of strings attached. That is why Elaine is completely on the outside I think. And those that are on the inside but still up standing are marginalized and silenced and ridiculed.
Or hit glass ceilings preventing promotion, depending on what kind of organization it is.


blues

Hubbert's Peak oil crash is the one that will get us. Its only competition comes from viral pandemics and nuclear war. The latter two are not inevitable. Peak oil is absolutely unavoidable, and could even precipitate the latter two. (But less energy could mean less travel, perhaps resulting in less disease contagion.)

Look at these numbers!:

Life After the Oil Crash

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Research.html#anchor_70

~~1. How Much Human Energy Is Contained in One Gallon of Gas?

~~From Dr. David Pimentel:

~~"That is, the 38,000 kcal in one gallon of gasoline can be transformed into 8.8 KWh, which is about 3 weeks of human work equivalent.(Human work output in agriculture = 0.1 HP, or 0.074 KW, times 120 hours.)"

~~He, of course, is accounting for the energy lost in the process of converting the gasoline into usable energy.

~~My calculations excluding the energy lost in the conversion process are as follows:

~~1 Gallon of Gas = 125,000 BTUs
Source: US Department of Energy

~~3,400 BTUs = 1 KWH
Source: US Department of Energy, Bonneville Power Mgt.

~~1 Gallon of Gas = 37 KWH
(125,000 BTUs in a gallon of gas divided by 3,400 BTUs in 1 KWH)

~~1 Gallon of Gas = 500 hours of human work output
(37 KWH in 1 gallon of gas divided by human work output in agriculture of .074 KW = 500)

~~Of course, there is some wiggle room with this number. Construction work, for instance, might yield a slightly different number. The size and physical condition of the person performing the work would also make a difference.~~


Now, if 1 Gallon of Gas = 500 hours of human work, and the human works a forty hour week, 1 Gallon of Gas = 12.5 weeks of human energy.

Yeah, I'd say things are going to be a little different!

Chris

Bush is Big Oil and a Texan to boot. These guys have ruled most of the planet for the last fifty years. They know all about Hubbert's Peak. They are very busy preparing for what is to come next. The invasion of Iraq is but part of that. New domestic laws militarizing the police and creating mercenary forces are part of those preparations. Building huge detention centers in preparation for riots and dissenters. Big Brotherism like green lighting spying via the Telco's on all US citizens etc. It is obvious the US government is preparing for major domestic troubles ahead.

blues

The PTB are merely taking advantage. Our troubles could be better addressed by more information to the people about the troubles ahead. We need an emphasis that it will require more cooperation. More effort. More tolerance. More secure and enhanced democracy. In other words, real patriotism. Without being asked, we are being herded into a closed answer, when we could pursue an open answer. Now is the time to stand up for the open solution. We must stand up and say NO!!!

We could do it, if we were people of character. It is still an option. Maybe I will just join the Green Party and start protesting the undebated closed corporate solutions that are being shoved down our throats. Maybe I will start using my communitysurvival.wordpress.com site to talk about arranging protests.

Pluto

Speaking of oil, it closed above $100 today. Of course, there are some "issues" driving it higher. Iran's oil bourse opened yesterday (although they stopped selling oil in USD weeks ago). Venezuela is making noise about not selling oil to the US unless their assets are unfrozen (via Exxon's suit). Russia is now selling gas in Rubles. China is enjoying the show and investing everywhere it can get a foothold.

But, at the end of the day, I don't think the US is going to be bombing anyone these days. I just have a feeling those days are over. Generally, when a fiat currency declines, it is kept afloat by bullets. But I don't think that dog hunts no more.

I think we're in the endgame.

DeVaul

Pluto,

I would ask you where you intend to go? Where is there freedom and liberty aplenty?

When our founding fathers came here, no other european kingdoms protected the land and the people living on it from violent seizure by our founding fathers. They were free to craft a whole new government after dispatching the Indians.

Where do you suggest we go to avoid the imminent collapse of America? Is there some friendly place that will offer us refuge? Is there at least a place devoid of human habitation that we can occupy and thus start over?

I do not see any obvious place to go.

OC

DeVaul,

Gee, I thought the plan was to come this way as shortcut to meet the Chinese and Indians?

Pluto

DeVaul, you wrote:

I would ask you where you intend to go? Where is there freedom and liberty aplenty?

And I would ask you, where not? Austria, Montecarlo, Argentina, Iceland, Malta, Panama, Mexico, Canada, Spain, Sweden -- there are so many countries that are not ambitious.

When our founding fathers came here, no other european kingdoms protected the land and the people living on it from violent seizure by our founding fathers. They were free to craft a whole new government after dispatching the Indians.

Indeed. Europe has changed a lot since the seventeenth century. But, it is necessary to keep in mind (as you seem to point out) that this is a nation founded on genocide, not unlike Israel. There is a karma (and no long term positive outcome) that comes with the blood-soaked soil we live on.


Where do you suggest we go to avoid the imminent collapse of America? Is there some friendly place that will offer us refuge? Is there at least a place devoid of human habitation that we can occupy and thus start over?

Devoid of human habitation? Dear god, why would anyone want that? You must have your six-shooters strapped on and a covered wagon ready to roll. It's time to evolve to the level of intelligent civilizations. And integrate. You make Americans sound like bums and hobos.

There are decent nations that welcome intelligent Americans. They understand why we are leaving. Those doors will shut soon -- with increrasing migration.

Elaine Supkis

I don't want a safe haven. I come from a long line of fighters. We go where ever. And why give up without a fight, anyway?

FIGHTING IS FUN! Damn it. Just as we shouldn't fear hard times. I have had hard times and they were FUN in a lot of ways!


Peace and prosperity are fine but the human condition and human history is all about fighting and struggle and figuring things out. And lord help us if we are all whipped dogs fleeing bullies. I hate that with a passion.

DeVaul

It is strange that you mention Austria, Pluto. I believe you can be imprisoned there for talking about the holocaust in the wrong way. You can be imprisoned in Thailand for saying anything negative about the king or the royal family.

Montecarlo? I am not James Bond.

Argentina? Surely you jest. I am not a former Nazi fleeing investigators.

Iceland? I am not a fisherman, although I would probably not mind living there or in Sweden.

What country wants a Deaf cripple who requires medical care and medicines that he himself cannot afford? Only the well-to-do can flee to other countries and then protect themselves there with their mobile wealth. The other possibility is to migrate to a place where you have family or relatives like my ancestors did to escape the Irish potato famine.

All my relatives are here in America now.

I thought about applying for political asylum to Sweden or somewhere because my home state stripped me of my citizenship rights, but I still do not believe I would fare any better elsewhere unless they treat the Deaf differently than here.

Maybe you know of such a place. I would be interested to know.

I am not stupid. I know America does not want me, but who would, and how would I get there?

Pluto

DeVaul -- Your problems are bigger that political situations, for sure. It is common in the Southwest, where I live, to move to Mexico, even in your seventies and eighties. Depending on your age, there are many types of residence visas.

The medical care is nationalized and very inexpensive, the living is easy, and the happiness level is high. I intend to spend time there to begin, as well.

DeVaul

People in their seventies and eighties move to Mexico? I have to admit to being a little shocked by this. Do they have AC or do they live there without it? In Florida, the elderly all need AC or they die. Some can take the heat and humidity, but most cannot.

My grandfather went to Mexico to teach golf to rich people there back during the Depression. He seemed to like Mexico, but he never spoke about it to me. I have photos of him there and he seems happy.

Still, my perception of Mexico is that of a raging drug battlefield between rival drug gangs and the government itself. Of course, that is what TV shows. I have no first hand knowledge of Mexico. Where do these people retire to? Do they become Mexican citizens?

Pluto

DeVaul -- It took awhile for me to figure out what AC was. Americans don't retire to places where air conditioning is required. Quite the opposite in most cases.

You've made some bizarre assumptions about Mexico, based on border towns, I suppose. They are ugly and dangerous because they are ajacent to the United States. The further away you get from the US border, the safer, friendlier, more prosperous, and beautiful it is.

Mexico is as large as the U.S. including high mountains cities and cold temperatures. I suggest you Google "retire mexico." A fabulous world awaits you.

DeVaul

Thanks for the info, Pluto. Like I said, my knowledge of Mexico is based only on what I have seen on TV and not first hand knowledge.

I will check it out. Maybe heading south of the border would not be a bad idea when the nazis come.

K

They All Went To Mexico
by Willie Nelson

Where's my pal where's my friend all good things must have an end
Sad things and nothing's on and on they go I guess he went to Mexico
They all went to Mexico buenas dias got to go
Tengo que obedecer mi corazon

They all went to Mexico

[ guitar ]

Where's my mule and where's my dray straw hat's packed up and gone away
The mule don't go north and dray go slow they both went to Mexico
Where's my sweetie where's the face that lit dark corners every place
She put up with me long time you know and then she had to go to Mexico

They all went to Mexico...

[ accordion ]

Where's my brown dog where's my hound he liked my truck he hung around
But he's a canine Romeo and I guess he went to Mexico
Where's that woman so sweet so mean her heart was cautious her mind was keen
She was always looking for the peccadillo I hope she went to Mexico

They all went to Mexico...

[ guitar ]

Where's December's happy crew with German bikes and sidecars too
They take the truck south to St Louis MO motorcycle all the way to Mexico
Where's my luck and where's my grace has it all been just a foolish chase
Every time I hear that rainy chill wind blow I think it might be time to head to Mexico

They all went to Mexico...
They all went to Mexico...

[ guitar ]

blues

I'm with Elaine on this one. I don't like to fight. But I can fight like a cornered rat if the need arises. I sure wish people would begin to get hip to my proposals about excessive wealth control, and runoff with approval voting. Liberty and democracy are worth struggling for.

For you folks who would go the Voltaire route, maybe Spain or Belgium would be good. If you have the bucks. You want to be in a temperate climate (Iceland is the exception). Mexico might be an option for poor folk like myself.

Climate and environmental hazard factors are crucial. So Lancaster, Pennsylvania or Richmond, Virginia might be good places to live. Other than viruses with animal vectors, or STDs, most viruses disintegrate above 60 deg. F, outside the body, so wear light gloves outside below 60 deg. And arrange to have at least one room above 75 deg.

I'm gonna keep a huge bag of super-deluxe Mother Hubbard dog food, and chlorine water purifier tabs just in case, too.

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